Managing neurodivergent burnout

Burnout is a big problem for many neurodivergent people. It can show up in unexpected ways, and existing approaches don't always address the underlying causes. In this livestream I talk about:

- How neurodivergent burnout shows up, and how it's different
- The reasons why burnout is such a thing
- How we can approach it in a ways

I also answer community questions on the topic.

To check out the business support packages I mentioned, take a look at https://joyfullydifferent.co/business-support-packages/

Resources

• Pryke-Hobbes, Amber, Jade Davies, Brett Heasman, Adam Livesey, Amy Walker, Elizabeth Pellicano, and Anna Remington. “The Workplace Masking Experiences of Autistic, Non-Autistic Neurodivergent and Neurotypical Adults in the UK.” PLOS ONE 18, no. 9 (September 6, 2023): e0290001. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0290001.
• Raymaker, Dora M., Alan R. Teo, Nicole A. Steckler, Brandy Lentz, Mirah Scharer, Austin Delos Santos, Steven K. Kapp, Morrigan Hunter, Andee Joyce, and Christina Nicolaidis. “‘Having All of Your Internal Resources Exhausted Beyond Measure and Being Left with No Clean-Up Crew’: Defining Autistic Burnout.” Autism in Adulthood 2, no. 2 (June 1, 2020): 132–43. https://doi.org/10.1089/aut.2019.0079.
• Wolbring, Gregor, and Aspen Lillywhite. “Burnout through the Lenses of Equity/Equality, Diversity and Inclusion and Disabled People: A Scoping Review.” Societies 13, no. 5 (May 2023): 131. https://doi.org/10.3390/soc13050131.
• Grove, Rachel, Hayley Clapham, Tess Moodie, Sarah Gurrin, and Gabrielle Hall. “‘Living in a World That’s Not about Us’: The Impact of Everyday Life on the Health and Wellbeing of Autistic Women and Gender Diverse People.” Women’s Health (London, England) 19 (2023): 17455057231189542. https://doi.org/10.1177/17455057231189542.
• Pantazakos, Themistoklis, and Gert-Jan Vanaken. “Addressing the Autism Mental Health Crisis: The Potential of Phenomenology in Neurodiversity-Affirming Clinical Practices.” Frontiers in Psychology 14 (September 4, 2023). https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2023.1225152.
• Rollnik-Sadowska, Ewa, and Violetta Grabińska. “Managing Neurodiversity in Workplaces: A Review and Future Research Agenda for Sustainable Human Resource Management.” Sustainability 16, no. 15 (January 2024): 6594. https://doi.org/10.3390/su16156594.
• Seven types of rest - https://ideas.ted.com/the-7-types-of-rest-that-every-person-needs/

Transcript

Hello everyone, welcome to another one of my live streams.
And today we're going to be talking about managing
neurodivergent burnout.
Now, first of all, apologies for the fact
that this one's been a bit delayed.
I was away.
I hoped to be able to record some live streams
whilst I was away, but that all got a bit ahead of me.
So now I'm back and we'll be back to the kind of,
hopefully the regular normal schedule
of live streams from now on.
So yeah, today we're going to talk about
the experiences of burnout,
why it happens, how it comes about,
maybe how you can work to ease it.
It's not always something that you can completely fix,
but the ways you can work with it and manage it.
And then we're going to answer community questions
about the thing as well.
And please do keep an eye on my LinkedIn feed
because there'll be community questions
for the next topic as well coming up soon.
So a little bit of a warning about the content.
Obviously we're going to be talking about the symptoms
and consequences of burnout and why that can be difficult.
So if that's something you're right in the midst of
and it's too much to hear,
then perhaps you don't want to listen to this right now.
Please do ask questions as we go
and ask me any questions as you like
and I'll get to them if I can.
Now burnout is something I've definitely experienced
and definitely kind of work on the edge of quite a lot.
I really fully burnout in 2018
and was actually really quite unwell with it
without even realizing at that point
that it was neurodivergent burnout.
And I think that's a really difficult thing to work with
if you happen to have encountered it as well.
It can be a real shock.
In some ways it led to me finding out
that I was neurodivergent
and understanding the situation that I'd been in.
Now, I want to talk a bit about how burnout shows up
because sometimes it's a bit different
for neurodivergent people than it is for other people.
Now neurodivergent people are at significantly greater risk
than the general population of burning out
and it's a real challenge for a lot of people.
And I think it's also worth noting
that it's not entirely like the burnout
that some other people see
that neurotypical people might see
because it comes from different sources
and we'll talk about some of those a bit later.
I want to talk about some of the warning signs
and some of the ways it shows up first of all.
So maybe you can spot it yourself
because like a lot of neurodivergent people
we used to working very hard.
We used to struggling
and we used to kind of being on the edge
of some of this stuff.
So it's not always, it can be hard to tell,
okay, this is actually something that's not quite right.
This is something that we could address.
So the first bigger sign of burnout coming
is needing a longer time to recover between things.
Finding that you need the relatively small things
that would be, you know,
maybe have a little recovery time,
get longer and longer.
Maybe if it's interacting with people for you
or being in very large, noisy, busy spaces
and normally you'd need maybe an hour or two to recover,
suddenly you find yourself needing a day or two to recover,
that might be something that's suggesting
that your, maybe your resources are depleted.
Another big area of this,
it can be prioritizing the work that we need to do
over other things, over fun things,
over the things that we most want to be doing.
And that can be a real issue too.
And so when that starts to happen,
we start to lose the joy in life
and the kind of sparkle goes out of things.
And that can be another symptom of burnout
and maybe it's a relationship to things
like depression as well,
but really keeping an eye on that.
It's like, is this, am I losing the joy in this?
And sometimes losing the joy in the work
that we're doing as well,
not getting what we want out of work anymore
can be another big sign of that.
Another really obvious one,
big one is starting to get physical symptoms.
Kind of physical aches and pains that won't go away,
maybe kind of digestive things, skin things,
like the small things about how your body is working
and colds and being more susceptible to coughs
and colds as well, that's a really, really big one.
I know a lot of people who are used to working
quite close to this limit find that when they stop,
they suddenly get a whole load of things.
When they go on holiday, they suddenly get cold
or for me, sometimes it can be a migraine.
It's sort of like the shock for my body
is so used to working in tension
and doing all this work that when it goes away,
it almost goes into a panic mode and doesn't know what to do.
So if you spot that again,
it's a sign that you're working close to these limits.
And as well as the physical symptoms,
you can get loads of psychological symptoms as well.
And these can be increases in emotional reactivity.
So finding small things really upsetting
that wouldn't normally tip you into dysregulation,
wouldn't tip you out of balance,
but suddenly start doing so
or start to be this kind of ongoing irritation
that you can't deal with
or that feels very uncomfortable.
And the flip side of that
is that you might also experience emotional detachment
and numb it.
You might, that shows up as like not caring,
not feeling that things matter anymore,
that what you're doing matters anymore
or struggling to realize,
struggling to care about what you're working with
or the people that you're working with.
Another big area that this shows up
is the cognitive difficulties,
memory difficulties and brain fog.
So that experience of just not being ever fully sharp,
not being ever ready to kind of do what you need to do
is another big possible sign of impending burnout.
And just more negative psychological symptoms in general.
If you have neurodivergent symptoms that you manage,
that you find difficult,
and maybe the other people find difficult,
then if you're getting closer to burnout,
moving towards burnout,
those symptoms might come to the fore more fully
and be more disruptive.
You just might not have the resources to handle them
in the same way that you did before.
Now, I'd like to talk a bit about
why burnout actually happens,
how it comes about and the kind of issues
that arise because of it.
So one of the really big issues for neurodivergent,
neurodivergent people that causes burnout is masking.
And higher masking people are at really,
really high risk of this.
It's a really, really significant issue.
And it can lead to the effort involved in managing others,
managing the situation,
holding all of that context all of the time,
never being able to put it down.
And in never being able to assert our needs
and not resolving the conflicts that come about
because of them are a really, really big challenge.
And they can definitely lead to burnout
because we never get the chance to down-regulate to rest.
Another big area that leads to this
is this way of this expectation
that we over-deliver,
this taught over-delivery that we can pick up.
One of the big ones of this is this idea
of doing your best,
meaning show up 100% all of the time.
And that just isn't realistic.
No one can do that.
Your best is what you can achieve in the moment.
But I think it's very easy to pick up this message
that actually we should be on and on it all of the time.
And that is exhausting
and definitely leads to burning out.
Another area of this and related to this
is when we have really variable ability,
different situations,
either externally or internally,
we can perform differently and in different ways.
But if that's not something that we are supported in
or that's understood,
that can really lead us to over-performing,
to pushing, to trying to do this
even when we're not resourced to do so.
Another area around this is hyper-adaption.
And when we've got these hyper-adaptions,
they are really well-practiced
and we often aren't even aware that we're doing them,
but they're still demanding,
they're still taking a cost.
And very often, if they're rooted in traumatic experiences
and we haven't had the chance to unpick all of that,
they can't always be moderated or turned off.
So they're always costing us that thing
when we're in that environment,
whether or not they're kind of really relevant
or useful right now.
And that is another really, really big area
that can be a challenge.
Now, another aspect that can be a significant difficulty
is just that we seek different rewards.
The world isn't necessarily set up to reward us
with the kind of things that we want.
And being able to get those rewards
can really be a source of...
Or the fact that we don't get those rewards
or have to work very, very hard to get them
can be a source of significant challenge as well.
And related to this,
and this is a really big thing that I see
and I've experienced myself and I'm still working on,
is that very early on we pick up the message
that the things that we care about,
the things that are intrinsically rewarding
that bring us joy just to do,
are over here and are separate
and we need to keep them separate
from the things that other people want to see
and other people reward
or other people even find it acceptable at all.
And because those things are separate,
we are always working between burnout
and between,
and between, well, often bankruptcy at work.
Now, I wanna pause here
because I've noticed one of the streams has disconnected,
which is not very helpful.
So I will stop and restart that stream.
So that's unfortunate.
Okay, so it looks like that's failed completely.
So what I will do is, I will share this.
So if you're catching up on LinkedIn afterwards,
yeah, this is where it broke.
So this is where you can restart.
Okay, so where were we?
Intrinsic and extrinsic rewards.
So yeah, so these intrinsic and extrinsic rewards
are completely separate
and that's a really, really big issue
because there's a lot of people
that are really, really big issue
because we're always being pulled between them.
We can never satisfy both at once.
And that learning to include those
and join those back together
becomes means that we can use the resources
that we have much more fully to meet both of those needs.
And very often, we only have limited capacities.
And particularly if you have ADHD,
you might find that you have very limited
volitional capacity to do things
that are a means to an end.
And so kind of double dipping on the reward
that we get is really, really important
because you won't necessarily have the energy
in the drive to do that next time.
Another big area that can lead to burnout
is invalidated needs.
Now, this can come about
because our needs might be different.
We might be told that our needs aren't valid
even though they completely are.
And that can really lead to us
then not meeting those needs at all
or foregoing meeting those needs
or postponing them long beyond the time
that we really would or would be in our interests to do so.
This can lead to problems drawing boundaries,
problems to saying no,
problems to saying, sorry, not right now.
That can be a really, really big issue.
And the difficulty is when we override our boundaries,
when we override our needs,
eventually we get so depleted
that we kind of end up in this panic response
of being like, oh, God, I need to do this.
And then it becomes a huge thing
and it becomes a real emergency.
And so it can be a real thing for other people
because suddenly they didn't know we had this need
and it's a huge thing all of a sudden.
And so that itself can become problematic
because we could have taken slightly smaller steps
earlier on to meet that need
without it becoming an emergency.
Another area of invalidated need
which is a really big one at work
is the moral injury of working.
Now, moral injury is this idea
that we can live with, to some degree,
things that don't align with our values
and our system of morality.
And particularly people who have a high sense
and have a high justice sensitivity
and that's quite a lot of autistic people,
some ADHD people and some others as well,
will really suffer if our work isn't aligned with values
and aligned with this high justice sensitivity.
And that can be a sense of burnout
because we're holding all of these different
kind of paradoxical things
that are really, really hard to reconcile
and working around them all of the time
without ever being able to resolve them.
And I also want to say that, you know,
when we talk about masking,
one of the things we learn to mask is the exhaustion itself,
is the fact that we have needs that aren't being met.
So it's very easy for us to appear absolutely fine
to an outside observer,
even though we're dealing with an awful lot
and a lot that other people might find, you know,
someone else would find completely overwhelming.
Now, that itself is an issue
and it's worth really remembering
that your needs are, your own experience
is the key thing to whether or not you have,
you know, whether or not you need to take breaks
and where those needs are being met or not.
And I want to just touch on the fact
that particularly where things are trauma related
and this does cross over with the masking again,
very often that means being hyper vigilant,
constantly looking out for a situation
and never fully relaxing.
And there's quite a lot of research to suggest
that for many autistic people,
just never ever settle down
to the kind of same relaxed baseline
that maybe many of the rest of the population do.
So understanding that it can be really, really hard
for us to relax and we need very specific circumstances
in which to do so.
And that looking for those is really a very important way
of managing the burnout that we're experiencing.
So now I want to talk a bit about how we can manage this,
how we can work with it.
One of the key ways to understand
how burnout happens is effort to payoff ratio.
So it's not to say that we can't do hard things
if we're at risk of burnout.
Indeed, actually avoiding hard things can be a sign
that we're in impending burnout.
We want to be able to do challenging things.
We want those things that,
but we want to be able to do challenging things
that give us what we need.
And understanding that we're going to get high payoff
for those things as well.
And that might be, you know,
that can be intrinsic or extrinsic or ideally,
as I said, both,
but we still need to consider
that we're going to get those needs.
We're going to get those needs met.
And so understanding where our particular effort payoff ratio
is for doing different things in different circumstances
is a really, really key way of starting to move things
in a direction away from burnout.
And another big part of that is the acceptance
that we have a completely different set of abilities
or we may have a different set of abilities
to most other people around us.
And that has advantages and disadvantages.
And a lot of the way that we can do this
is by playing to our advantages actually
and playing to the things where we find easy,
we find straightforward and we find fun.
So looking towards how I can solve this problem,
how I can achieve this in my way with my abilities
is a really, really helpful way of working with burnout.
One way you can think of a neurodivergent condition
is as a specialism.
And a specialism means, yes, developing skills
in some areas, but implicitly,
it means choosing not to develop skills in others
and being focused in a certain way.
So thinking about how with your particular special set
of abilities, you can address and reach the things
that you want is a really useful way of working with this.
And another one, and this is a big one for me,
is not chasing the losses hard.
And when I say not chasing losses,
then this is something that gamblers might talk about.
But actually there are all sorts of losses
that we encounter, things that didn't go as we planned,
didn't work out.
And particularly if you run your own business,
this can be a huge thing.
It's like, oh, I didn't sell in,
I didn't get enough new clients this week
or I didn't do what I wanted this week.
And we can be really, really hard and be like,
well, okay, well, then I need to do extra next week
or I need to do extra tomorrow.
I need to not rest until I've done that.
And that can be a real recipe for pushing ourselves
beyond our abilities to cope and our boundaries ourselves.
Another area to understand this
is really to think about our sensitivity
or our susceptibility, which is another word
that psychologists sometimes use
and how that relates to the expertise that we have.
Now, what I mean by this is if you are really sensitive
to a certain thing, whether that's sensory
or whether that's perceptive, whether you're really aware,
you know, if you're really aware of the sound of something,
then you're actually likely to find really noisy spaces,
really overwhelming.
If you're really sensitive to the energy
that someone has in the way that they're feeling,
then being in a space where a whole load of people
are feeling bad is gonna feel really exhausting
and draining for you as you need to boundary yourself
and protect yourself and work with that.
But the other side of that is being really sensitive
to something gives you a degree of expertise
to do fine work in certain situations
that other people don't have.
Because you're delicate, you're sensitive, you know,
is that you can work with this finally.
But you've got to understand that that comes
with its own set of difficulties
and really understanding whether your work style
in a context is more like a scalpel or an axe.
It's a really important way to understand yourself
and where the value of your work lies
because you wouldn't try and cut down a tree with a scalpel.
It doesn't make sense.
It would go blunt, it just doesn't work.
And equally, I would hope you wouldn't try
and perform surgery with an axe.
So it's those kind of things.
Where do you fall on this susceptibility sensitivity
and allowing yourself what you need to support
the degree of sensitivity that you do have
is a really important way of avoiding burnout.
I wanna just talk about one of the ideas
that I came across recently,
which I think I'm not 100% comfortable with the whole thing,
but I think it's a useful prompt, a useful consideration,
a useful way of considering
where you might be missing a certain sort of rest
or perhaps recreational recovery.
And this is based in the work of Dr. Sandra Dalton Smith
and there's Ted Tolkien stuff in the resources,
if you want to follow this up.
But in her talk and in her work,
she identifies these different areas, physical, mental,
spiritual, emotional, sensory, social
and creative forms of rest.
And says that we need rest across all of these.
So if you're feeling that all of your rest
is just sat there and is very passive
and you're not getting the chance
to do some of these other things,
you might find that actually focusing on something,
one of these other ones is a useful way
of getting the kind of rest and recovery
that you need to move forward.
Another way to work with this is to look at the stuff
that you just kind of can't help but do.
We often learn as neurodivergent people
that a lot of what we're rewarded for
is based on performance,
is based on kind of not being exactly
who we need to be in this push
and this needing to be different.
But actually seeing if we can focus our work
and move to a place where we're valued
for kind of who we are intrinsically
and the stuff we almost can't help but do
is really, really valuable.
So to give you an example,
I have throughout my entire life
often got into a lot of trouble
for asking difficult questions of people.
You know, at school, at work, it was always a thing.
It's like, why do you ask so many questions?
Why are they so, you know, people take offence at it?
But now because of the way that I frame my work,
that's actually the thing
that people are looking for me to do.
That's what people ask me to do.
They want me to ask those difficult questions
and to unpick this stuff.
So because I couldn't help but do it,
it's actually really good
because that's intrinsically rewarding for me.
I love doing it and I'm drawn towards it.
So finding the kind of stuff
where what are you drawn towards?
What can't you help but do?
It's a really, really helpful way
of connecting these things up.
Another way of doing this is seeking,
oh yeah, is it abandoning this idea of work-life balance
and this idea that these things are separate.
This is very often a very difficult thing
for neurodivergent people to do anyway.
I just don't think it's a helpful concept
for us to reflect on.
So rather than thinking about work-life balance,
think about integrating work
with all of the other aspects of your life.
You know, what is it?
How does it fit?
How does it work together
rather than this idea of two things in constant opposition?
They should support each other
rather than being two things
like you trading off one against the other.
Now, another area of this
is the extent to which we have autonomy.
We have control and very often it can feel
like we don't have control and autonomy.
And this itself is really exhausting
because we're always at the mercy of other people.
So it's really important to see
what does autonomy look like for you?
How does it feel to have more control?
How does that actually feel like a good thing?
Or are there areas that you'd like to give over control
to other people?
You wouldn't like a responsibility you don't want
as both of those can be sources of burnout and of struggle.
Now, the last thing I'd like to finish on
before I move on to the questions from the community
is that you are entitled to your needs.
The message we get is that we're not entitled to our needs.
The invalidation of needs that I mentioned earlier
means that we tend to assume that our needs
aren't really true or there's different ways of,
you know, that we shouldn't be having them,
that they're shameful, that or at best
that we have to earn them.
That unless we do a certain thing
and we perform a certain way,
we need to earn our needs being met.
And that's a really, really tough thing to live with.
And it's a recipe for burnout.
So to work with this and to move this
in a different direction, practice drawing good boundaries.
And the easiest way to start with this
is to practice drawing them with yourself very often
rather than with other people
because that can be difficult and has interpersonal stuff.
But where can you, you know,
is it if you're tired and you're working?
You know, it's like, particularly if you work for yourself,
can you take a nap?
You know, just 10 minutes or 15 minutes,
it's all it takes very often.
And then you'll probably do more afterwards anyway,
be more productive rather than forcing yourself
through all the time.
So how can you achieve what you want
without all of that pushing
and respecting your needs and your boundaries as you go?
And another big thing around this
is stopping before we're exhausted.
Really making sure that you're taking regular breaks,
you're building in this recreation
in whatever way and the rest that you need,
in whatever way you need.
I know some people who schedule everything,
and I'm kind of one of those people really,
if it isn't in my calendar, I tend not to do it.
So I schedule breaks and I schedule lunchtime
and I schedule all of the other stuff that I know I need
to be able to work all the way through
and not be exhausted by the end of the day.
So really understanding what are your needs in this?
And stopping before you're at that,
like you're on 1%, before you're running on fumes,
you can stop at like,
it's perfectly fine to stop at a quarter tank
or a third tank or even half a tank
instead of pushing it all the way every time.
And so related to that is attending
to the early warning signs that you are getting tired,
that you are in need of rest,
of doing something different and responding to them
in ways that feel good and that work for you.
So I'd like to kind of come to the end
by asking a few community questions.
And these were asked or answered on LinkedIn.
So it's really good to see that people have come up
with a couple of these
and I definitely resonate with both of these.
So I really wanted to share them.
The first one is how to have rest that isn't productive.
And I think this is such a big challenge
for those of us who are kind of optimizers and systematizers.
We want everything to work really, really well.
And it can also be an aspect of us feeling
that rest is scarce.
You've got to make the most of this thing
because you don't have much of it.
And that relates to those needs
that I was talking about earlier.
So look for that in yourself.
If you're worried about the fact
that rest isn't productive
or isn't restful enough or isn't doing enough,
then look and see how you're relating to your needs.
One of the big areas that I find really useful
is this idea of maximization versus satisfying.
Now, satisfying is a weird word.
It's not a very nice word, honestly.
It's portmanteau.
And that this idea that actually what's good enough
is a really helpful way to look at this.
And I see a lot of people, you know, it's this idea of like,
if you think about, say you think about a holiday,
is the holiday going to be most enjoyable?
If you plan everything out optimally as always,
optimally as you can and insist on doing it,
you know, whatever the weather does,
whatever you feel like, whatever that,
that in its way is actually really draining very often
and isn't going to give you the kind of rest you need,
even though it might be the maximized,
the optimal way to do that holiday.
Instead, thinking about what's good enough,
what's going to feel good for you and in the moment
and what's going to meet the need well enough
is a really important thing.
And this can also cross over with sleep.
And for a lot of people, actually I should have mentioned,
insomnia can be an aspect of burnout.
And really that idea of like, good enough sleep,
I can get enough sleep,
can be much, much more effective than the idea of,
I need exactly this amount of sleep,
which can get in the way itself of getting the sleep
that we need and the rest that we need.
So yeah, so really thinking in terms of this,
satisfying what's good enough,
not what's perfect is a really important way
of dealing with that,
that idea that rest isn't productive enough.
And another one is, yeah, so thank you Jackie for that.
And from David, we've got how to truly rest
and do nothing without feeling guilty.
And yeah, the guilt is a huge one.
And again, it's related to this idea
that we've been taught that we shouldn't rest
or that our rest wasn't allowed
or wasn't in the forms that were allowed.
And I think for me, the big thing to deal with this
or the big reframe to deal with this
is that rest is part of the overall process.
Is think in terms of what your whole process is
of coming up with something.
Some of it is doing, some of it is active,
some of it is output, but some of it is daydreaming,
particularly again, if you have ADHD traits,
that mind wandering is actually a part
of how we solve those problems.
That idea of like, okay, I've kind of primed my brain
to work on this in the background
and now I'm gonna do something completely different.
Cause think about where you have your best ideas.
I'll bet very often there, when you're in the shower
or when you're going for a walk
or when you're doing something completely unrelated
to whatever it is that you're doing or cooking dinner
or whatever, then allowing yourself that rest,
that nothingness is as a part of the process.
And another thing related to this
is allowing yourself the kind of recreational input
is allowing yourself to read,
is allowing yourself to listen to podcasts
or watch TV that's gonna generate the kind of ideas
that are gonna then serve you
in whatever it is that you're trying to do
and trying to achieve.
So yeah, so allowing yourself all of these different things
and not seeing just output as the only thing that's valid
and the only thing that's part of what you're doing.
So I hope that was useful
and I hope it's going to ease the burnout
that maybe you've been experiencing
or struggling with a bit.
The next topic we're gonna talk about
is when people get upset with you.
And this is obviously gonna cross over
because there's stuff around needs
and asking for needs and asserting needs in this one.
So yeah, so why, working with,
why people might get upset
and how you can work with that
and how you can avoid that as much as possible in future.
The notes for this and the transcript
will be available on the website.
So you can look up the resources that I mentioned
and there are links to all of those.
Yeah, and I'll have a transcript up for this on the website.
If you have found this useful
and you think maybe you want to work with me
around some of this stuff,
I have packages for neurodivergent business owners
and for individuals working in organizations available
and a range of packages that are,
we've had available for a few months now
and really good to see lots of people taking them up
and going with them.
So they're about finding the right support
and creating the right situation that you need to be,
to do, really work at your best
and to feel supported and not burnout.
I've also got some new products for businesses
and for organizations coming out soon.
One of those is a policy review
to check that your policies are neurodiversity friendly
and are going to support neurodivergent people
and aren't unintentionally excluding people.
Another one is to help your whole organization
talk more confidently about neurodiversity
because I found that a lot of what really makes managers,
leaders worried about this
is that they don't have the language
and they're afraid of saying something wrong
and afraid of saying something offensive.
So really being able to talk about it confidently
is a core way of making sure
that everyone can get their needs met.
And the last one of these is helping set up
employee resource groups or employee groups
around neurodiversity and disability.
I know a lot of organizations have kind of something
in place for other groups
but are just exploring this
and it can be a difficult thing
and it's not fair to put the burden of setting
all of this stuff up on the people
that you've tried to support in the first place.
So I've got this offer around supporting setting up
these employee resource, an employee resource group
for your neurodivergent staff
and to support your neurodivergent staff.
And there's a discount on these products
for joyfully different members
and for community interest organizations.
So I don't feel that money is necessarily
going to be a barrier to working with me.
And if you happen to be around in London next week,
I'm also going to be speaking at PropTechConnect
which is a really big conference
around property and technology
and innovation and building and design.
So if that's your area,
then please do check that out and come along.
That was a lot of stuff.
So yeah, I very much hope to see you again soon.
Thank you for listening and goodbye.